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Thread started 03/13/18 9:39am

OldFriends4Sal
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Is Islam a Religion of Peace ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali

She makes some powerful points. She's said and I've heard from others that other religions can get attacked, but if you say anything about Islam, your threatened or fear to be threatened...
We the world need to support those who are for reform.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #1 posted 03/13/18 2:18pm

E319

Hell no it's not a religion of peace.

Check out this news story from yesterday in South Florida. Bet you will not be hearing about it in your evening news!

Link: Teen accused of fatally stabbing boy, injuring 2 others 'because of his Muslim faith'
https://www.local10.com/n...slim-faith

(I would copy and paste the story but I can't seem to do it from my phone.)
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Reply #2 posted 03/13/18 3:51pm

2freaky4church
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The Southern Poverty Law Center says Ali is a hater. They have her on a list of Islamophobiacs. She just blurbed Pam Geller's latest book. Geller is a supreme bigot.

She needs to talk to Karen Armstrong:

She's the leading expert on religions.

Did you know Robert P. George defends Muslims too?

Hindus are killing Muslims, Buddists are killing them. Christians are. Leave Ali alone.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #3 posted 03/13/18 6:09pm

Dasein

Islam and Modernity: Transformation of an Intellectual Tradition

by Fazlur Rahman


As Professor Fazlur Rahman shows in the latest of a series of important contributions to Islamic
intellectual history, the characteristic problems of the Muslim modernists—the adaptation to the needs
of the contemporary situation of a holy book which draws its specific examples from the conditions of
the seventh century and earlier—are by no means new. . . . In Professor Rahman's view the
intellectual and therefore the social development of Islam has been impeded and distorted by two
interrelated errors. The first was committed by those who, in reading the Koran, failed to recognize
the differences between general principles and specific responses to 'concrete and particular historical
situations.' . . . This very rigidity gave rise to the second major error, that of the secularists. By
teaching and interpreting the Koran in such a way as to admit of no change or development, the
dogmatists had created a situation in which Muslim societies, faced with the imperative need to
educate their people for life in the modern world, were forced to make a painful and self-defeating

choice—either to abandon Koranic Islam, or to turn their backs on the modern world.

-
Bernard Lewis

*****************************

Islam, like all religions, needs reformation like a muthafucker, and like all major religions, can
hardly be said to be a faith system of peace.

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Reply #4 posted 03/13/18 6:30pm

Dasein

OldFriends4Sale said:

She makes some powerful points.


Yes, she does.

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Reply #5 posted 03/13/18 6:46pm

Dasein

2freaky4church1 said:

The Southern Poverty Law Center says Ali is a hater. They have her on a list of Islamophobiacs. She just blurbed Pam Geller's latest book. Geller is a supreme bigot.

She needs to talk to Karen Armstrong:

She's the leading expert on religions.

Did you know Robert P. George defends Muslims too?

Hindus are killing Muslims, Buddists are killing them. Christians are. Leave Ali alone.


The SPLC has her mentioned as an anti-Muslim extremist, not as an Islamophobe. There is a dif-
ference.

All defenses of all religions do come to their own end at some point. One can only defend one's
religious beliefs so far before being overtaken by science, common sense, modernity, and history.

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Reply #6 posted 03/14/18 8:37am

2freaky4church
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Science gave us the atomic bomb. Thanks.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #7 posted 03/14/18 9:36am

jaawwnn

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There are 1.8 billion muslims in the world (or so google tells me). If it was a religion of murder we'd all be dead by now.

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Reply #8 posted 03/14/18 10:23am

2freaky4church
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Ha, ha, ha, right. There would be a hundred thousand suicide bombings a day.

There have been about 68 thousand terror attacks since 1968? That's it. Muhammad signed more peace treaties then went to war. Most of the actual battles had no fighting.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #9 posted 03/14/18 10:25am

2freaky4church
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The first Hamas suicide bombing was in 2001. That was because of Sharon fucking with the Temple Mount. They ban Muslims from praying.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #10 posted 03/14/18 11:06am

NorthC

She used to live in Holland. She was a refugee from Somalia. She gained a reputation as someone who was very critical of islam and recieved death threats because of it and needed bodyguards. She changed from being a member of the socialist PvdA to the liberal VVD. And in this country, liberal means right wing. Eventually, her "verblijfsvergunning" (our version of the green card) was withdrawn by minister Rita Verdonk, who had gained a reputation of being islam-critical herself, because Ayaan had lied about her last name when asking for asylum.
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #11 posted 03/14/18 11:12am

2freaky4church
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She likes the odious Geert Wilders.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #12 posted 03/14/18 11:14am

NorthC

jaawwnn said:

There are 1.8 billion muslims in the world (or so google tells me). If it was a religion of murder we'd all be dead by now.


She never said it's a religion of murder. Did you miss the part where she said there's millions of peaceful Muslims?
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #13 posted 03/14/18 11:23am

2freaky4church
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Why would a demon religion have peaceful members? lol

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #14 posted 03/14/18 11:32am

NorthC

2freaky4church1 said:

She likes the odious Geert Wilders.


And it's a real shame that this debate had been polluted by guys like him. Wilders wanted to ban the Koran, a member of his party recently said he wouldn't mind if mosques were burned... So yes, of course you are going to get accusations of racism and Islamophobia.
And Ayaan was provocative. She said that if the prophet Mohammed were to live today, he'd be regarded a peadophile for marrying his 9 year old niece. This may be true, but it's not going to get you any friends in the Muslim community!
She also planned to make a film with director Theo van Gogh called Submission (the translation of Islam), where texts from the Koran were to be painted on the body of a naked woman. This led to the murder of Van Gogh by a radical Muslim. Which created an anti-islam sentiment in Holland that was already lingering since 9-11 and even before that, even though no one in politics had payed much attention to it. That's how people like Wilders could become big.
So while I agree with what Ayaan says in this video, the way she brought her message across, wasn't the best.
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #15 posted 03/14/18 12:16pm

IanRG

NorthC said:

2freaky4church1 said:

She likes the odious Geert Wilders.

And it's a real shame that this debate had been polluted by guys like him. Wilders wanted to ban the Koran, a member of his party recently said he wouldn't mind if mosques were burned... So yes, of course you are going to get accusations of racism and Islamophobia. And Ayaan was provocative. She said that if the prophet Mohammed were to live today, he'd be regarded a peadophile for marrying his 9 year old niece. This may be true, but it's not going to get you any friends in the Muslim community! She also planned to make a film with director Theo van Gogh called Submission (the translation of Islam), where texts from the Koran were to be painted on the body of a naked woman. This led to the murder of Van Gogh by a radical Muslim. Which created an anti-islam sentiment in Holland that was already lingering since 9-11 and even before that, even though no one in politics had payed much attention to it. That's how people like Wilders could become big. So while I agree with what Ayaan says in this video, the way she brought her message across, wasn't the best.

.

Oh dear - It strikes me that she is far more likely to prevent reform of Islam and deradicalisation of Islamists than contribute positively.

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Reply #16 posted 03/14/18 12:28pm

NorthC

^Yes, that's what I thought. But it all happened years ago, I hope she has toned down her message by now.
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #17 posted 03/14/18 1:40pm

Dasein

2freaky4church1 said:

Science gave us the atomic bomb. Thanks.


The amount of people killed in God's name is much larger than the amount of people killed because
of the atomic bomb. And, I'm sure the good science has produced far outweighs the good produced
by religion.

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Reply #18 posted 03/14/18 1:51pm

Dasein

2freaky4church1 said:

The first Hamas suicide bombing was in 2001. That was because of Sharon fucking with the Temple Mount. They ban Muslims from praying.


The fact that bombing was a response to a ban seems to prove the point that I'm making: all
of the world's major religions are hardly peaceful as there was probably some Quranic verse used
to justify such an act by Hamas.

Religion has been shown to not make adherents more moral than us irreligious folk.

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Reply #19 posted 03/14/18 5:44pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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if drawing a picture of your faith's so-called prophet or messiah or god carries with it ANY chance of a violent reaction which is NOT widely and openly condemned by its own leaders and members and general practitioners then it is NOT a religion of peace.

O)):~{>

[Edited 3/14/18 17:45pm]

Anyone for banning the AR15 must be on the side of the criminal as once banned only criminals will have them.
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Reply #20 posted 03/15/18 3:50am

jaawwnn

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NorthC said:

jaawwnn said:

There are 1.8 billion muslims in the world (or so google tells me). If it was a religion of murder we'd all be dead by now.

She never said it's a religion of murder. Did you miss the part where she said there's millions of peaceful Muslims?

I didn't even bother watching it, was just nipping that idea in the bud before it took off.

I've watched it now, there's no analysis of why millions upon millions upon a billion+ of muslims aren't jihadists and why a few are and it just becomes another dull attack on illiberal liberals because people protested her at a university once. Everyone plays the victim in these debates. I doubt any of the people in the middle east getting their hospitals droned every twenty seconds or the opiod-addicted masses of the poor in the USA give a damn that a few rich college kids stopped this woman getting an honorary degree.

[Edited 3/15/18 3:56am]

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Reply #21 posted 03/15/18 5:41am

Dasein

jaawwnn said:

There are 1.8 billion muslims in the world (or so google tells me). If it was a religion of murder we'd all be dead by now.


Nobody said it was a religion of murder. Ali merely questions if a religious system which allows for
the use of violence in some context can ultimately be said to be a peaceful religion. There are bil-
lions of Muslims in the world who do not go around murking apostates, but is that even a concept
to be practiced in modern forms of Christianity or Judaism? Any religious system that purports it-
self as being peaceful, yet has some theological doctrine which can be interpreted as supporting the
killing of those who convert away from the faith cannot be said to be as such, in my opinion.

According to Pew Research:


believers gsi2-chp1-9



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Reply #22 posted 03/15/18 6:21am

jaawwnn

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I'm 99.9% sure that everyone who will post in this thread is in agreement that Islam is allowed be criticised and that murder for leaving a religion is a pretty dumb idea.

The rest of the garbage where the west tells the middle east what the middle east thinks and then judges it based on that i'm not that interested in. Whats your plan? Bomb them out of being Muslim? Use logic and reasoning to prove to a religious person that they shouldn't be religious any more?

Like I said above, this video just descends into the usual campus culture wars bullshit.

[Edited 3/15/18 6:29am]

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Reply #23 posted 03/15/18 8:11am

Dasein

jaawwnn said:

I'm 99.9% sure that everyone who will post in this thread is in agreement that Islam is allowed be criticised and that murder for leaving a religion is a pretty dumb idea.

The rest of the garbage where the west tells the middle east what the middle east thinks and then judges it based on that i'm not that interested in. Whats your plan? Bomb them out of being Muslim? Use logic and reasoning to prove to a religious person that they shouldn't be religious any more?

Like I said above, this video just descends into the usual campus culture wars bullshit.

[Edited 3/15/18 6:29am]


You didn't even watch the video, so why should anything you say about it be taken seriously? There
are certain features of Islam that do not comport with modernity - killing apostates is one of them.
And, there are certain features of Judaism and Christianity that do not comport with modernity either
which must be criticized. This criticism does not necessarily make one anti-Semitic or anti-Christian,
which is another argument Ali makes in the video you did not watch. All of this is not because modernity
is so freakin' great; It just so happens that I live in it, so I'd rather have more people joining hands
than finding reasons not to. And religion does a pretty good job of excluding others and telling other
people how to live and how to think.

Are you suggesting that religious people cannot be rationalized with; that appealing to logic and rea-
son with a relgious person is futile? This is another reason that religious people should be criticized!
And, if you watched the video, Ali's plan is not to use violence at all. She's asking Islam to re-
form itself in the face of modernity.



(There is an argument that modernity is based upon religious ideas, but that doesn't mean we can't
turn on religion itself for its innate possibilities for violence.)

[Edited 3/15/18 8:50am]

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Reply #24 posted 03/15/18 10:22am

lust

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2freaky4church1 said:

The first Hamas suicide bombing was in 2001. That was because of Sharon fucking with the Temple Mount. They ban Muslims from praying.



The first Hamas sucide suicide bombing was 1993 (after Palestinian Islamic Jihad started it in 1989)

Sharon (awful man) vistited (not fucked with) the Temple Mount (holiest site in Judaism) after assurances from the waqf that it would be ok as long as he didn’t enter the mosque (he didn’t) and Muslims were/are NOT banned from praying there (Jews are).
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
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Reply #25 posted 03/15/18 10:28am

2freaky4church
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Where did I get the 2001 number? lol

I'm not an autodidac like Noam.

I meant bombings had huge increase in 2001, yea, that's it. lol.

Obvious nobody watched the Yusuf video.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #26 posted 03/15/18 10:37am

2freaky4church
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I will even use a right wing source:

https://www.cato.org/blog...mmigration

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #27 posted 03/15/18 10:40am

2freaky4church
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http://news.gallup.com/poll/157067/views-violence.aspx

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #28 posted 03/15/18 10:46am

lust

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2freaky4church1 said:

Where did I get the 2001 number? lol



I'm not an autodidac like Noam.



I meant bombings had huge increase in 2001, yea, that's it. lol.



Obvious nobody watched the Yusuf video.



That’s right. There was about two dozen in the 90s and then in the 3
or 4 years after the Temple Mount visit there were around 100. That stopped when the wall was built.

Anyway, we’re off topic. Apologies.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali. People like her and Nawaz are ruthlessly attacked by the unlholy alliance of the far left and conservative Islam communities. If we keep demanding that Muslim would be reformers get back in thier box, we’re hindering a grassroots movement that could have far reaching benefits for people who are denied the freedoms that we demand and take for granted.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
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Reply #29 posted 03/15/18 10:47am

2freaky4church
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Lust, put down the kool aid and watch the video.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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