Just as I thought it couldn't get worse, it did. For the first time today I actually wondered if there could be a second referendum. I also wondered if May might resign. I can't even believe that I think Gove (who I hate) might be a good choice for Brexit secretary (when I say good choice, I mean he's a big, huge turd so he'll get on with Juncker just fine). So what says you? - can the bad deal get through? Do you even think it is a bad deal? Can May hang on, even until March? Will we get a second referendum? Can the mess we are in get any better? Or is it a crafty ploy to get people to vote to stay in the EU through a second referendum, thereby rendering the whole shitstorm as totally pointless? And where is Corbyn? Come on man, this is your chance, get the airplay, take advantage. Some great memes though.

This is something else, watching it.

Brexit - what a mess! UGH.

DiminutiveRocker said:

Brexit - what a mess! UGH.

I fear it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets any better

onlyforaminute said:

This is something else, watching it.

I really, really want May to go, but what are the alternatives? Gove, Johnson, Mogg etc... I can't believe I'm saying it but I think the Maybot is the best of a very bad bunch - unless we can get a general election that is. I did actually think she might break at one point in yesterday's press conference but no, she turned back to stone once again.

Some news outlets reporting that the 48 threshold has been reached. All Government whips asked to cancel engagements and get to parliament. Today could be interesting.

It is a real mess, and it's unfolded exactly like the car crash it was always going to be. There's was never any real way around that, either, as far as I can see. Both major parties and their bases are split over EU membership, and a kind of fudged middle ground really pleases no-one.

I don't really know what will happen. The Tory backbench rebellion hasn't unseated May yet (watch this space....), but I'm still not convinced the deal will get through as is. Eventually, it could be Tory and Labour Remainers cutting some sort of deal to maintain as much of the status quo as they can, regardless of what people voted for. These systems are incredibly firmly entrenched against any disruptions to key interests, despite their putatively democratic outer shell.

That clown photo is everything. Sorry for you guys.

[Edited 11/16/18 8:07am]

poppys said:

That clown photo is everything. Sorry for you guys.

the Silly Party from Fyling Circus immediately comes to mind LOL

hahaha

Totally bored with Brexit and Trump. Second referendum needed.

Guitarhero said:

Totally bored with Brexit and Trump. Second referendum needed.

I get you. But it's like being bored with this sitting next to your house - at the same time.

[Edited 11/16/18 16:51pm]

It's pathetic yet facinating at the same time.

Obviously a few of us have discussed this a few times over the past two years. I've always maintainted that we won't be allowed to leave; either by leaving in name only or a politically manufactured process to create an environment for a second referendum that can be bought.

The latter was always more likely, as it creates the illusion of democracy to deliver a very controlled result. The people didn't vote the way they supposed to. It must be corrected.

The funniest thing is the 'people's vote'. For two years I've heard nothing but screaming from the remain camp that 52/48 is not enough to be acted on. That a minimum threshold should be 60-75%, or that a result of less that 10% difference is essentially a draw.

Suddenly, a poll predicts 54/46 to remain (which happens to be the same percentage predicted in 2016) and all of a sudden, it matters. Its big. We must act.

Of the events in the past week, there is one point I found the most facinating (and you won't see much about it, as BBC and Sky are so remain), was Dominic Rabb's interview last night.

The Brexit Secretary said that the draft deal he worked on up until the end of October bore little resemblance to the one presented this week, and that is why he had to step down. He said approximately 300 pages had been added, including the clause that gives the EU a veto on letting the UK leave of its own free will.

If the Brexit Secretary didn't write it/approve it, who did and why?

deebee said:

Lianachan said:

Guitarhero said:

SquirrelMeat said:

maplenpg said:

jaawwnn said:

maplenpg said:

I guess Northern Ireland are saying pretty much the same as Scotland.

Good Christ if only that was the case, this is going to tear the north apart and none of the Brexiteers understand or give a damn. If we could only build a wall around the little englanders and let them live in their merrie fantasy Brexitland where we didn't have to listen to them it'd be great but alas the legacy of hundreds of years of colonialism can't be turned off so easily. [Edited 11/17/18 2:25am]

What about the English people who did not vote leave like me? Are we all little englanders? what about some of the welsh that voted leave do they have a derogatory term for them also.

I dunno man, maybe Wales shouldn't have voted to leave. I'm sure the brexiteers will be happy to leave you all outside their Union Jack covered cocoon anyway.

Here's a question for you, as someone in the middle of it all how do you want those of us looking in to support you?

A good piece


https://www.theguardian.c...SApp_Other

Guitarhero said:

jaawwnn said:

maplenpg said: Good Christ if only that was the case, this is going to tear the north apart and none of the Brexiteers understand or give a damn. If we could only build a wall around the little englanders and let them live in their merrie fantasy Brexitland where we didn't have to listen to them it'd be great but alas the legacy of hundreds of years of colonialism can't be turned off so easily. [Edited 11/17/18 2:25am]

What about the English people who did not vote leave like me? Are we all little englanders? what about some of the welsh that voted leave do they have a derogatory term for them also.

The issue with referenda is they are generally black and white. Sometimes thats a good thing, sometimes it creates a wedge.

When the issue is as clean cut as leave or remain, their will be a losing side.

Lets flip the current senario. If remain had won 52% to 48%, how much 'leave the EU' would have been actioned to accomodate the 48%? My bet is nothing.

So when remainers ask, 'what about them', I don't think they ever gave a thought about the 'other side'. And when you say 'are we all little Englanders' what do you mean? It sounds derogatory.

I discovered a lot of remainers in the past two years who are adament they stand for liberal ideals, yet display some of the most bigoted vitriol I've every come across.

Where bigot means 'intolorance of other's opions', how many remainers are willing to accept the democratic result and opinions that differ from their own?

maplenpg said:

SquirrelMeat said:

It's pathetic yet facinating at the same time.

Obviously a few of us have discussed this a few times over the past two years. I've always maintainted that we won't be allowed to leave; either by leaving in name only or a politically manufactured process to create an environment for a second referendum that can be bought.

The latter was always more likely, as it creates the illusion of democracy to deliver a very controlled result. The people didn't vote the way they supposed to. It must be corrected.

The funniest thing is the 'people's vote'. For two years I've heard nothing but screaming from the remain camp that 52/48 is not enough to be acted on. That a minimum threshold should be 60-75%, or that a result of less that 10% difference is essentially a draw.

Suddenly, a poll predicts 54/46 to remain (which happens to be the same percentage predicted in 2016) and all of a sudden, it matters. Its big. We must act.

Of the events in the past week, there is one point I found the most facinating (and you won't see much about it, as BBC and Sky are so remain), was Dominic Rabb's interview last night.

The Brexit Secretary said that the draft deal he worked on up until the end of October bore little resemblance to the one presented this week, and that is why he had to step down. He said approximately 300 pages had been added, including the clause that gives the EU a veto on letting the UK leave of its own free will.

If the Brexit Secretary didn't write it/approve it, who did and why?

Where was the Raab interview shown? I think my main feeling is that history will look back and wonder why the hell the timing of the Brexit referendum was as it was. We had seen services cut all around us because of austerity, and yet we were giving millions to the EU daily without really seeing what we were paying for. It was no real surprise looking back that so many people stuck their two fingers up. The deal as it stands is a bad deal. My feeling is that they'll make some changes (probably already agreed) and then tell the people it's the best we're going to get. Whether that leads to a second referendum (deal, no deal, or no brexit (to quote May)) or not remains to be seen.

I think the Rabb interview was on Newsnight. Might be on iplayer.

Ref the deal, I've read it in full and it's shocking. Before reading it, I thought it might have been created due to some level of incompetance, but I have no doubt whatsoever that now that it is being manipulated to try and create a remain senario.

I'm frequently asked, due to my profession, to advise cabinet office, but on this one, they want no advice.

I due in Westminster next Wednesday and haven't been up there for weeks. Can't wait to find out what the truth in on the ground.

SquirrelMeat said:

I think the Rabb interview was on Newsnight. Might be on iplayer.

Ref the deal, I've read it in full and it's shocking. Before reading it, I thought it might have been created due to some level of incompetance, but I have no doubt whatsoever that now that it is being manipulated to try and create a remain senario.

I'm frequently asked, due to my profession, to advise cabinet office, but on this one, they want no advice.

The CO has cracked how to spell 'incompetence', so you're probably not needed.

[Edited 11/28/18 7:03am]

I've been listening recently to Costas Lapavitsas, who's very good at getting to the nuts and bolts of why anyone of a left-wing persuasion really shouldn't be championing the EU as the defender of working people's interests, or internationalist values more generally.

20 or 30 years ago, perhaps, in the era of Jacques Delors, there may have been more of a 'social Europe' the institution was helping to defend. Now, though, it's neoliberal to the core, and works to maintain free market dominance in its member states, foreclosing the possibility of the kind of programme of public investment and social spending that we might hope a social democratic government would try to initiate. And, despite calls to 'remain and reform' from the inside, there's no evidence that that is possible to change.

One just has to look to the treatment of Lapavitsas's native Greece, and the way Syriza government was economically choked into accepting unyielding austerity when it tried to deviate from the neoliberal programme, despite its democratic mandate to put in place a moderate plan to service its debt and get back on its feet.

SquirrelMeat said:

maplenpg said:

SquirrelMeat said: Where was the Raab interview shown? I think my main feeling is that history will look back and wonder why the hell the timing of the Brexit referendum was as it was. We had seen services cut all around us because of austerity, and yet we were giving millions to the EU daily without really seeing what we were paying for. It was no real surprise looking back that so many people stuck their two fingers up. The deal as it stands is a bad deal. My feeling is that they'll make some changes (probably already agreed) and then tell the people it's the best we're going to get. Whether that leads to a second referendum (deal, no deal, or no brexit (to quote May)) or not remains to be seen.

I think the Rabb interview was on Newsnight. Might be on iplayer.

Ref the deal, I've read it in full and it's shocking. Before reading it, I thought it might have been created due to some level of incompetance, but I have no doubt whatsoever that now that it is being manipulated to try and create a remain senario.

I'm frequently asked, due to my profession, to advise cabinet office, but on this one, they want no advice.

I due in Westminster next Wednesday and haven't been up there for weeks. Can't wait to find out what the truth in on the ground.

So, what was the truth on the ground?

deebee said:

I've been listening recently to Costas Lapavitsas, who's very good at getting to the nuts and bolts of why anyone of a left-wing persuasion really shouldn't be championing the EU as the defender of working people's interests, or internationalist values more generally.

20 or 30 years ago, perhaps, in the era of Jacques Delors, there may have been more of a 'social Europe' the institution was helping to defend. Now, though, it's neoliberal to the core, and works to maintain free market dominance in its member states, foreclosing the possibility of the kind of programme of public investment and social spending that we might hope a social democratic government would try to initiate. And, despite calls to 'remain and reform' from the inside, there's no evidence that that is possible to change.

One just has to look to the treatment of Lapavitsas's native Greece, and the way Syriza government was economically choked into accepting unyielding austerity when it tried to deviate from the neoliberal programme, despite its democratic mandate to put in place a moderate plan to service its debt and get back on its feet.

Yup. The EU were also very much responsible for the thousands of deaths of migrants who felt their best hope was to try and cross the seas in a boat.

Amnesty International openly spoke out against EU policy causing deaths in the mediterranean:

"Responsibility for the mounting death toll falls squarely on European governments who are more concerned with keeping people out than they are with saving lives," he added.

I'll have a watch of the vidoes when I'm next off work. Thanks for posting.