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Reply #30 posted 11/29/18 12:53pm

maplenpg

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NorthC said:

^The ones responsible for the deaths of those people are the human traffickers who took their money and put them in those boats. [Edited 11/29/18 12:18pm] [Edited 11/29/18 12:19pm] [Edited 11/29/18 12:20pm]

I'll respond with a quote from Amnesty's report. The part I've highlighted in bold should have (in my opinion) been done years ago:



Some deaths at sea along this perilous route are unavoidable, as long as smugglers force people to travel in unseaworthy and overcrowded boats, with no food, water, safety equipment, or sufficient fuel on board. The recent surge in deaths at sea, however, cannot be dismissed as an inescapable misfortune.


Since the beginning of June 2018, Italy’s withdrawal from its leading role in coordinating rescues at sea in the central Mediterranean and its new policy of refusing disembarkation to vessels carrying rescued refugees and migrants, have rendered the search and rescue system unreliable, unpredictable, and punitive. Rescuers and frail and exhausted rescued people are left stranded at sea for days, even weeks, as each disembarkation is negotiated individually. There is the concrete risk that shipmasters, faced with uncertainty over the place and time of disembarkation, refrain from responding to distress calls, at a time when fewer dedicated resources are available for search and rescue.



[...] Italy, European states and institutions must act urgently to prevent further avoidable loss of life at sea in the central Mediterranean by ensuring that all shipmasters able to undertake search and rescue operations feel encouraged and supported in doing so and are allowed to disembark swiftly at a place of safety, where those rescued can access assistance and protection. They must also reform the Dublin system by overhauling the rationale which assigns responsibility to the state of first entry and replacing it with a mandatory distribution mechanism of asylum-seekers

[Edited 11/29/18 12:54pm]

If love is the answer, what was the question? - Carter USM.
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Reply #31 posted 11/30/18 1:25am

NorthC

^And that last part is, of course, the big problem. Italy and Greece can't take all those immigrants and it is unfair to let them handle the situation all by themselves. But this is also one of the reasons lots of British voted "leave": they don't want those migrants forced upon them by the EU. Once they're in, it's very hard to get them out again. Most of the problems surrounding immigration come from young men from countries like Morocco or Algeria who know they have no right to asylum, but refuse to leave. The Dutch immigration service is already short of staff which makes procedures longer and longer.
Recently there was a report about refugees from Eritrea: most of them are unemployed and don't sprak the language.
So it's a dilemma and I don't really see a solution: we can't let people drown, but letting them all into Europe only causes new problems.
[Edited 11/30/18 1:27am]
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Reply #32 posted 11/30/18 11:44pm

maplenpg

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NorthC said:

^And that last part is, of course, the big problem. Italy and Greece can't take all those immigrants and it is unfair to let them handle the situation all by themselves. But this is also one of the reasons lots of British voted "leave": they don't want those migrants forced upon them by the EU. Once they're in, it's very hard to get them out again. Most of the problems surrounding immigration come from young men from countries like Morocco or Algeria who know they have no right to asylum, but refuse to leave. The Dutch immigration service is already short of staff which makes procedures longer and longer. Recently there was a report about refugees from Eritrea: most of them are unemployed and don't sprak the language. So it's a dilemma and I don't really see a solution: we can't let people drown, but letting them all into Europe only causes new problems. [Edited 11/30/18 1:27am]

I don't disagree that it is a dilema. And I agree that there is no simple solution (though the EU could act by bringing in a mandatory distribution mechanism - it would be a start). However, and I'm talking about specifically those migrants crossing the seas in boats here - I often wonder how bad my life would have to be to leave everything I have and risk my life to reach a country where I know no-one and don't speak the language, and which might not be as welcoming as I hope. Not to mention that I might have to go through hell to 'prove' that my reasons for leaving my home are honest. I think about my son when he is older, and how I would feel if he said he was going to make the trip and try to build a life for us all to join him later. I try to imagine all my children on an overcrowded boat, in the dark, not knowing what lies ahead, scared beyond anything I know.

Europe has a duty to the people risking their lives, it is simply not good enough to leave them in the oceans, or to store them in detention centres (let's remember very young children are being locked-up in these detention centres too). Of course we can all sit here and point out that not all migrants are honest, but not all people are honest in any part of society, so why do migrants all get the stigma of the few? And of course people are going to suffer a certain amount of 'not-in-my-backyard- syndrome', but the politicians and the media need to show migration in a new, positive light, not the same old dross they've been spinning for years. There was an Iraqi family found living in a field near me yesterday - is that really the best Britain (or Europe) can offer?



These articles are worth a read: https://www.theguardian.c...gee-crisis



https://news.sky.com/stor...e-11561445

[Edited 11/30/18 23:46pm]

If love is the answer, what was the question? - Carter USM.
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Reply #33 posted 12/01/18 5:02am

deebee

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maplenpg said:

NorthC said:

^And that last part is, of course, the big problem. Italy and Greece can't take all those immigrants and it is unfair to let them handle the situation all by themselves. But this is also one of the reasons lots of British voted "leave": they don't want those migrants forced upon them by the EU. Once they're in, it's very hard to get them out again. Most of the problems surrounding immigration come from young men from countries like Morocco or Algeria who know they have no right to asylum, but refuse to leave. The Dutch immigration service is already short of staff which makes procedures longer and longer. Recently there was a report about refugees from Eritrea: most of them are unemployed and don't sprak the language. So it's a dilemma and I don't really see a solution: we can't let people drown, but letting them all into Europe only causes new problems. [Edited 11/30/18 1:27am]

I don't disagree that it is a dilema. And I agree that there is no simple solution (though the EU could act by bringing in a mandatory distribution mechanism - it would be a start). However, and I'm talking about specifically those migrants crossing the seas in boats here - I often wonder how bad my life would have to be to leave everything I have and risk my life to reach a country where I know no-one and don't speak the language, and which might not be as welcoming as I hope. Not to mention that I might have to go through hell to 'prove' that my reasons for leaving my home are honest. I think about my son when he is older, and how I would feel if he said he was going to make the trip and try to build a life for us all to join him later. I try to imagine all my children on an overcrowded boat, in the dark, not knowing what lies ahead, scared beyond anything I know.

Europe has a duty to the people risking their lives, it is simply not good enough to leave them in the oceans, or to store them in detention centres (let's remember very young children are being locked-up in these detention centres too). Of course we can all sit here and point out that not all migrants are honest, but not all people are honest in any part of society, so why do migrants all get the stigma of the few? And of course people are going to suffer a certain amount of 'not-in-my-backyard- syndrome', but the politicians and the media need to show migration in a new, positive light, not the same old dross they've been spinning for years. There was an Iraqi family found living in a field near me yesterday - is that really the best Britain (or Europe) can offer?



These articles are worth a read: https://www.theguardian.c...gee-crisis



https://news.sky.com/stor...e-11561445

[Edited 11/30/18 23:46pm]

The journalist Jamal Osman did a good extended feature, a few years ago, retracing his own harrowing journey as a refugee. It's the sort of report that brings the human stakes of these stories into focus.
https://www.channel4.com/...terror-war

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #34 posted 12/01/18 1:20pm

maplenpg

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deebee said:

maplenpg said:

I don't disagree that it is a dilema. And I agree that there is no simple solution (though the EU could act by bringing in a mandatory distribution mechanism - it would be a start). However, and I'm talking about specifically those migrants crossing the seas in boats here - I often wonder how bad my life would have to be to leave everything I have and risk my life to reach a country where I know no-one and don't speak the language, and which might not be as welcoming as I hope. Not to mention that I might have to go through hell to 'prove' that my reasons for leaving my home are honest. I think about my son when he is older, and how I would feel if he said he was going to make the trip and try to build a life for us all to join him later. I try to imagine all my children on an overcrowded boat, in the dark, not knowing what lies ahead, scared beyond anything I know.

Europe has a duty to the people risking their lives, it is simply not good enough to leave them in the oceans, or to store them in detention centres (let's remember very young children are being locked-up in these detention centres too). Of course we can all sit here and point out that not all migrants are honest, but not all people are honest in any part of society, so why do migrants all get the stigma of the few? And of course people are going to suffer a certain amount of 'not-in-my-backyard- syndrome', but the politicians and the media need to show migration in a new, positive light, not the same old dross they've been spinning for years. There was an Iraqi family found living in a field near me yesterday - is that really the best Britain (or Europe) can offer?



These articles are worth a read: https://www.theguardian.c...gee-crisis



https://news.sky.com/stor...e-11561445

[Edited 11/30/18 23:46pm]

The journalist Jamal Osman did a good extended feature, a few years ago, retracing his own harrowing journey as a refugee. It's the sort of report that brings the human stakes of these stories into focus.
https://www.channel4.com/...terror-war

Thanks Deebee. I like this quote from the article "The situation forced me to flee when I did not want to leave. It forced me into foreign lands where I am not wanted. It turned me into a lifetime refugee, a stateless person".

I really believe it is almost impossible to be seen as anything but an outsider by many if you don't fit the mould by looking and speaking like them. And your accent and looks are the most audible and visible way of showing 'you're not from round here'. It doesn't matter how many decades you live somewhere, people will never stop asking about your reasons for migrating to a place, and when you disagree with them it will be because you don't understand - you're just an outsider. And I think this applies to both migration within a country of birth as well as overseas migration.

EDIT: I've just read this article which was linked to the one you posted. This echoes almost exactly the experiences of my sister-in-law. Powerful stuff.

But back onto Brexit. Is May's deal going to go through? Are we to have a new PM by Christmas?

[Edited 12/1/18 13:25pm]

If love is the answer, what was the question? - Carter USM.
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Reply #35 posted 12/01/18 4:59pm

CherryMoon57

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Reply #36 posted 12/04/18 2:12am

jaawwnn

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CherryMoon57 said:

lol lol lol falloff

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Reply #37 posted 12/04/18 2:04pm

jaawwnn

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Well this is going well.
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Reply #38 posted 12/10/18 8:51am

maplenpg

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jaawwnn said:

Well this is going well.

That's an understatement. Just when I thought it couldn't get worse...

If love is the answer, what was the question? - Carter USM.
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Reply #39 posted 12/10/18 11:46pm

BombSquad

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a-short-history-of-britains-relationship-with-the-eu-uk-19269797.png


now kick them fucks out, no further talk, I'm getting tired of those whining wimps

just GET LOST!!



[Edited 12/10/18 23:47pm]

2013 Obama & Castro - "and barack has once again bowed down to a despot"
2018 Trump & Kim - "and it is happening now! after nearly 65 years and 11 presidents"
biggest fucking hypocrite around LOL only in da forum...
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