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Thread started 11/10/18 11:38am

Latin

Introducing…Paisley Diaries

Check out the following new series of essays published by Soulhead entitled "Introducing…Paisley Diaries by Miles Marshall Lewis":

"Miles has created a wonderful prologue into the world of Paisley Park below. The overview includes direct first-person quotes from Prince and provides the necessary background for new devotees and a fun primer for the most committed members of the Purple Army."

Here it is:

https://www.soulhead.com/...all-lewis/
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Reply #1 posted 11/10/18 12:00pm

databank

avatar

Latin said:

Check out the following new series of essays published by Soulhead entitled "Introducing…Paisley Diaries by Miles Marshall Lewis":

"Miles has created a wonderful prologue into the world of Paisley Park below. The overview includes direct first-person quotes from Prince and provides the necessary background for new devotees and a fun primer for the most committed members of the Purple Army."

Here it is:

https://www.soulhead.com/...all-lewis/

This is very exciting if done properly, by which I mean not ignoring those releases the author deems unworthy but really trying to uncover the backstory and creative process behind each and every release. Lots of bad things have been said about Paisley Park but for some of us fans, the label and all its releases hold a special place in our hearts.
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Reply #2 posted 11/10/18 12:10pm

databank

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The story of those artists or records who may have been signed and released seemed pretty exciting, too!
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Reply #3 posted 11/10/18 12:12pm

databank

avatar

The article's roll call forgot Kahoru Kohiruimaki, too. Not cool.
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Reply #4 posted 11/11/18 11:27am

pinkcashmere23

cool Thanks Latin!

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Reply #5 posted 11/11/18 12:34pm

onlyforaminute

Hmmmmm.
"You want to know your biggest fault? You don’t keep true accounts: you put a high value on what you’ve given, a low value on what you’ve received."

- Seneca, On Anger 3.31.3
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Reply #6 posted 11/12/18 4:35am

Chastity

This could indeed be interesting. I have a few concerns though:

1: He interviewed (some of) the artists but maybe he forgot to interview people around them that were there at the time? I know the backstory of Carmen Electra (and she was the second choice for that personae). I hope he gets that story straight.

2: I don't like this part "My overall goal with the Paisley Diaries... was to champion Prince in a beautiful, intelligent, respectful way" That certainly tells me this will not be an objective book or research.

But interesting indeed.

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Reply #7 posted 11/12/18 5:26am

databank

avatar

Chastity said:

This could indeed be interesting. I have a few concerns though:

1: He interviewed (some of) the artists but maybe he forgot to interview people around them that were there at the time? I know the backstory of Carmen Electra (and she was the second choice for that personae). I hope he gets that story straight.

I wasn't aware of that. Who was the first choice? eek

2: I don't like this part "My overall goal with the Paisley Diaries... was to champion Prince in a beautiful, intelligent, respectful way" That certainly tells me this will not be an objective book or research.

They all say that, including Duane who can hardly be accused of not researching seriously. If they don't, they're being accused of being gravediggers. It doesn't say anything about the quality of his research.

But interesting indeed.

I find the project fascinating: researching Paisley Park as a label and not only Prince and his side project is a new angle: it hasn't been done before and there's much nfor us to learn!

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #8 posted 11/12/18 5:39am

Chastity

databank said:

Chastity said:

This could indeed be interesting. I have a few concerns though:

1: He interviewed (some of) the artists but maybe he forgot to interview people around them that were there at the time? I know the backstory of Carmen Electra (and she was the second choice for that personae). I hope he gets that story straight.

I wasn't aware of that. Who was the first choice? eek

Robin Powers. The song "Carmen On Top" exists in a version with "Robin on Top" .... I'm not joking.

Robin and Carmen (Tara) were roommates. Prince dated Robin for a while but then went for Tara.

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Reply #9 posted 11/12/18 9:38am

databank

avatar

Chastity said:



databank said:




Chastity said:


This could indeed be interesting. I have a few concerns though:



1: He interviewed (some of) the artists but maybe he forgot to interview people around them that were there at the time? I know the backstory of Carmen Electra (and she was the second choice for that personae). I hope he gets that story straight.


I wasn't aware of that. Who was the first choice? eek







Robin Powers. The song "Carmen On Top" exists in a version with "Robin on Top" .... I'm not joking.



Robin and Carmen (Tara) were roommates. Prince dated Robin for a while but then went for Tara.


I knew Robin was discarted as the PP female rapper when Carmen got in but I'm not sure if it could be said Carmen was the second choice for that "personae". Prince also composed Fantasia Erotica with/for Anna Fantastic and before that I believe something with Cat had been envisioned. Good Judy Girlfriend was considered for Rave IIRC. As usual lots of ideas were floating around and songs were passed from a project/protégé to the next. But from what I could grasp the Robin project, if completed, would have been something quite different from what CE ended-up being so it's not as if we would have gotten the CE album as such, only sang by Robin. It's just that Prince lost interest in one in favor of the other, and felt one female rapper was enough. To be honest I don't think a project with Robin had any more potential than one with Carmen. Robin was maybe marketable as more authentic because she was black while Carmen was more marketable in terms of her looks, but neither project would have been the birth of the next Salt n Pepa or Queen Mayorship.
This said, you seem to know things we don't and I'm always eager to learn, please feel free to share any new info about it all cool
A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #10 posted 11/12/18 9:40am

databank

avatar

Latifah, not Mayorship lol
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Reply #11 posted 11/12/18 9:45am

databank

avatar

There's no mention of Robin On Top on Princevault. I'm curious about your source but if it's reliable that means you really know things we don't, and you should send a mail to Princevault to let them know.
Amusingly it says the song was then passed on to Mayte, so if it was first Robin then Carmen then Matte "on top" that's pretty hilarious.
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Reply #12 posted 11/13/18 12:28pm

EddieC

databank said:

Latifah, not Mayorship lol

How on earth did that happen, anyway?

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Reply #13 posted 11/13/18 12:39pm

databank

avatar

EddieC said:

databank said:

Latifah, not Mayorship lol

How on earth did that happen, anyway?

lol

I was on my phone: predictive typing. I hate that shit.

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Reply #14 posted 11/13/18 2:20pm

TheEnglishGent

avatar

databank said:

EddieC said:

How on earth did that happen, anyway?

lol

I was on my phone: predictive typing. I hate that shit.

Ever thought about turning it off?

RIP sad
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Reply #15 posted 11/13/18 6:13pm

violetcrush

databank said:

Chastity said:

Robin Powers. The song "Carmen On Top" exists in a version with "Robin on Top" .... I'm not joking.

Robin and Carmen (Tara) were roommates. Prince dated Robin for a while but then went for Tara.

I knew Robin was discarted as the PP female rapper when Carmen got in but I'm not sure if it could be said Carmen was the second choice for that "personae". Prince also composed Fantasia Erotica with/for Anna Fantastic and before that I believe something with Cat had been envisioned. Good Judy Girlfriend was considered for Rave IIRC. As usual lots of ideas were floating around and songs were passed from a project/protégé to the next. But from what I could grasp the Robin project, if completed, would have been something quite different from what CE ended-up being so it's not as if we would have gotten the CE album as such, only sang by Robin. It's just that Prince lost interest in one in favor of the other, and felt one female rapper was enough. To be honest I don't think a project with Robin had any more potential than one with Carmen. Robin was maybe marketable as more authentic because she was black while Carmen was more marketable in terms of her looks, but neither project would have been the birth of the next Salt n Pepa or Queen Mayorship. This said, you seem to know things we don't and I'm always eager to learn, please feel free to share any new info about it all cool

Really, they were roommates?? Maybe when they were in MN? What I had read is that Robin P saw Carmen dancing somewhere in LA, and approached her about being in her girl group, because Prince was in process of forming the Uptown Dames. One of Prince's people brought Carmen over to Prince's rental in LA at like 3:00am, and she "auditioned" for him by singing "Do, Re, Mi", (I guess to determine whether she had any voice to work with) and she also danced for him - this is per Carmen E. She said he did not really give her any feedback, and she left. A couple of months later Prince called her to tell her he wanted to record with her, and asked her to move to MN.

*

After watching the demo video of Robin P and the "Uptown Dames" I completely understand why Prince dropped her and the group. Awful, just awful. confused eek Carmen's talent was subpar too, but at least she had a sweet voice, and could actually dance a bit.

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Reply #16 posted 11/13/18 7:21pm

purplefam99

violetcrush said:



databank said:


Chastity said:



Robin Powers. The song "Carmen On Top" exists in a version with "Robin on Top" .... I'm not joking.



Robin and Carmen (Tara) were roommates. Prince dated Robin for a while but then went for Tara.



I knew Robin was discarted as the PP female rapper when Carmen got in but I'm not sure if it could be said Carmen was the second choice for that "personae". Prince also composed Fantasia Erotica with/for Anna Fantastic and before that I believe something with Cat had been envisioned. Good Judy Girlfriend was considered for Rave IIRC. As usual lots of ideas were floating around and songs were passed from a project/protégé to the next. But from what I could grasp the Robin project, if completed, would have been something quite different from what CE ended-up being so it's not as if we would have gotten the CE album as such, only sang by Robin. It's just that Prince lost interest in one in favor of the other, and felt one female rapper was enough. To be honest I don't think a project with Robin had any more potential than one with Carmen. Robin was maybe marketable as more authentic because she was black while Carmen was more marketable in terms of her looks, but neither project would have been the birth of the next Salt n Pepa or Queen Mayorship. This said, you seem to know things we don't and I'm always eager to learn, please feel free to share any new info about it all cool


Really, they were roommates?? Maybe when they were in MN? What I had read is that Robin P saw Carmen dancing somewhere in LA, and approached her about being in her girl group, because Prince was in process of forming the Uptown Dames. One of Prince's people brought Carmen over to Prince's rental in LA at like 3:00am, and she "auditioned" for him by singing "Do, Re, Mi", (I guess to determine whether she had any voice to work with) and she also danced for him - this is per Carmen E. She said he did not really give her any feedback, and she left. A couple of months later Prince called her to tell her he wanted to record with her, and asked her to move to MN.


*


After watching the demo video of Robin P and the "Uptown Dames" I completely understand why Prince dropped her and the group. Awful, just awful. confused eek Carmen's talent was subpar too, but at least she had a sweet voice, and could actually dance a bit.



Is the demo on youtube?
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Reply #17 posted 11/13/18 10:01pm

databank

avatar

TheEnglishGent said:

databank said:

lol

I was on my phone: predictive typing. I hate that shit.

Ever thought about turning it off?

No because it has its use, too lol

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #18 posted 11/13/18 10:04pm

databank

avatar

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

Really, they were roommates?? Maybe when they were in MN? What I had read is that Robin P saw Carmen dancing somewhere in LA, and approached her about being in her girl group, because Prince was in process of forming the Uptown Dames. One of Prince's people brought Carmen over to Prince's rental in LA at like 3:00am, and she "auditioned" for him by singing "Do, Re, Mi", (I guess to determine whether she had any voice to work with) and she also danced for him - this is per Carmen E. She said he did not really give her any feedback, and she left. A couple of months later Prince called her to tell her he wanted to record with her, and asked her to move to MN.

*

After watching the demo video of Robin P and the "Uptown Dames" I completely understand why Prince dropped her and the group. Awful, just awful. confused eek Carmen's talent was subpar too, but at least she had a sweet voice, and could actually dance a bit.

Is the demo on youtube?

There's some stuff from that era on Robin's channel, yes, including the Number One music video.

Contrarily to Carmen's record, Prince wasn't apparently going to do everything on Robin's album if what Robin said is to be believed: she had a band and they were also planning to record some of their own material.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #19 posted 11/14/18 5:26am

violetcrush

databank said:

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said: Is the demo on youtube?

There's some stuff from that era on Robin's channel, yes, including the Number One music video.

Contrarily to Carmen's record, Prince wasn't apparently going to do everything on Robin's album if what Robin said is to be believed: she had a band and they were also planning to record some of their own material.

I don't think I would take Robin P's information with more than a grain of salt. Have you read that 1993 "sexpose" about the NBA players and the groupie girls? Robin is the lead in that article. Yikes. Still can't believe her comments about Prince in that thing. She had some balls - literally and figuratively eek

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Reply #20 posted 11/14/18 7:05am

databank

avatar

violetcrush said:

databank said:

There's some stuff from that era on Robin's channel, yes, including the Number One music video.

Contrarily to Carmen's record, Prince wasn't apparently going to do everything on Robin's album if what Robin said is to be believed: she had a band and they were also planning to record some of their own material.

I don't think I would take Robin P's information with more than a grain of salt. Have you read that 1993 "sexpose" about the NBA players and the groupie girls? Robin is the lead in that article. Yikes. Still can't believe her comments about Prince in that thing. She had some balls - literally and figuratively eek

Yeah but there's a vid.

This unidentified track is not believed to be a Prince composition: https://www.youtube.com/w...aLgSo74KRs

This is actually pretty cool, much better than what I remembered.

And I realized that the project was more documented than I thought:

http://princevault.com/index.php?title=Album:_Robin_Power_And_The_Uptown_Dames_(1991)

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #21 posted 11/14/18 9:39am

databank

avatar

First article is out there but not much on PP yet: https://www.soulhead.com/...all-lewis/

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #22 posted 11/14/18 9:02pm

purplefam99

databank said:



purplefam99 said:


violetcrush said:



Really, they were roommates?? Maybe when they were in MN? What I had read is that Robin P saw Carmen dancing somewhere in LA, and approached her about being in her girl group, because Prince was in process of forming the Uptown Dames. One of Prince's people brought Carmen over to Prince's rental in LA at like 3:00am, and she "auditioned" for him by singing "Do, Re, Mi", (I guess to determine whether she had any voice to work with) and she also danced for him - this is per Carmen E. She said he did not really give her any feedback, and she left. A couple of months later Prince called her to tell her he wanted to record with her, and asked her to move to MN.


*


After watching the demo video of Robin P and the "Uptown Dames" I completely understand why Prince dropped her and the group. Awful, just awful. confused eek Carmen's talent was subpar too, but at least she had a sweet voice, and could actually dance a bit.



Is the demo on youtube?

There's some stuff from that era on Robin's channel, yes, including the Number One music video.


Contrarily to Carmen's record, Prince wasn't apparently going to do everything on Robin's album if what Robin said is to be believed: she had a band and they were also planning to record some of their own material.



Thx
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Reply #23 posted 11/15/18 6:20am

violetcrush

databank said:

violetcrush said:

I don't think I would take Robin P's information with more than a grain of salt. Have you read that 1993 "sexpose" about the NBA players and the groupie girls? Robin is the lead in that article. Yikes. Still can't believe her comments about Prince in that thing. She had some balls - literally and figuratively eek

Yeah but there's a vid.

This unidentified track is not believed to be a Prince composition: https://www.youtube.com/w...aLgSo74KRs

This is actually pretty cool, much better than what I remembered.

And I realized that the project was more documented than I thought:

http://princevault.com/index.php?title=Album:_Robin_Power_And_The_Uptown_Dames_(1991)

She may have tried to get something else going with a band after Prince, but it obviously did not go anywhere. Sorry, I just can't see how anyone can think she is talented with regard to performing. I have no doubt this is why Prince gave her the boot. Regardless of his interest in Carmen as a girlfriend/protege, if he thought Robin had any talent he would have continued working with her. He usually had multiple side projects going at one time.

*

Here she is trying out on X Factor eek

*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ-qS4uHZ9w

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Reply #24 posted 11/15/18 7:16am

databank

avatar

violetcrush said:

databank said:

Yeah but there's a vid.

This unidentified track is not believed to be a Prince composition: https://www.youtube.com/w...aLgSo74KRs

This is actually pretty cool, much better than what I remembered.

And I realized that the project was more documented than I thought:

http://princevault.com/index.php?title=Album:_Robin_Power_And_The_Uptown_Dames_(1991)

She may have tried to get something else going with a band after Prince, but it obviously did not go anywhere.

This is from before Prince dropped her, most likely rehearsing for their one and only Glam Slam Club show in March '91. It's documented.

.

Sorry, I just can't see how anyone can think she is talented with regard to performing.

I find this performance pretty cool. I'll give it to you that it owes a lot to the band being solid, but Robin finds her way through the music alright. Her performance on the Number 1 music video is quite disastrous by comparison (very cute old skool, primitive rapping, but truly awful lol ).

.

I have no doubt this is why Prince gave her the boot. Regardless of his interest in Carmen as a girlfriend/protege, if he thought Robin had any talent he would have continued working with her. He usually had multiple side projects going at one time.

It's documented that he dropped Robin for Carmen and that Prince grew a sort of obsession for Carmen (if not the person, at least the musical project). For some reason, Prince believed Carmen could be huge. Yet, what sort of talent did Carmen have that Robin lacked, for chrissakes? She was just as bad lol

Hell, what sort of potential did Cat or Anna Fantastic have as solo artists either? Prince seemed to think he could turn anyone into the next female rapper.

On the other hand those were different times for hip-hop: for all the shit people gave Prince for signing TC Ellis, let's not forget that it was originally WB who wanted to sign TC, not Prince.

Those years (88-93) were years of total political and artistic confusion at Paisley Park anyway:

- Sheila and Jill slammed the door because they didn't like the music and Prince wouldn't let them be more than sex dolls

- Cat left because of a personal disagreement

- Anna left because Prince was making promises but the project went nowhere

- Taja also dropped the label for unknown reasons

- WB took The Time off Prince's hands to give the band full control after a whole album was recorded

- Prince recorded a whole hard rock (!) album for MC Flash that even he wouldn't sign on his own label (!!), and failed to sell it to any other label

- Prince's management would sign a boys band to Paisley Park without Prince even knowing (Good Question)

- Tony LeMans was banned from recording at PP because he dated Ingrid but he would still get a Prince song for his second album...

- Prince lost interest in Ingrid's record, quite possibly the greatest project ever made on the label, for various reasons but apparently in parts because she wanted... to sing on her own record (!) + the Justify My Love fiasco spoiled the shock value of the project in Prince's eyes + (according to Ingrid) Carmen took all his attention (her again!)

- Prince signed TC because WB wanted him to, then forced Levi on TC who wanted to work with Miko instead

- Rosie's record would be indefinitely delayed (she also blamed Carmen IIRC)

- George Clinton wanted Prince to help him record a hit record but Prince wouldn't have anything to do with George's music

- Prince could probably have had both Tony Toni Toné and Lenny Kravitz on the label, but somehow managed to miss both opportunities clapping

- Etc., etc., all this leading to the Carmen Electra disaster that played quite a role in souring Prince's relationship with WB

.

I'm not sure why and how this all happened. But it did. So Robin may perfectly have ended with a record on Paisley Park and opening for the D&P Tour, Prince clearly lacked judgement when it came to his side projects at this stage lol

*

Here she is trying out on X Factor eek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ-qS4uHZ9w

OK, that is pretty embarassing. Those singing competition programs are evil, though, they should be banned. But nevertheless, it was embarrassing. IDK what she was thinking eek eek eek

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #25 posted 11/15/18 7:29am

violetcrush

databank said:

violetcrush said:

She may have tried to get something else going with a band after Prince, but it obviously did not go anywhere.

This is from before Prince dropped her, most likely rehearsing for their one and only Glam Slam Club show in March '91. It's documented.

.

Sorry, I just can't see how anyone can think she is talented with regard to performing.

I find this performance pretty cool. I'll give it to you that it owes a lot to the band being solid, but Robin finds her way through the music alright. Her performance on the Number 1 music video is quite disastrous by comparison (very cute old skool, primitive rapping, but truly awful lol ).

.

I have no doubt this is why Prince gave her the boot. Regardless of his interest in Carmen as a girlfriend/protege, if he thought Robin had any talent he would have continued working with her. He usually had multiple side projects going at one time.

It's documented that he dropped Robin for Carmen and that Prince grew a sort of obsession for Carmen (if not the person, at least the musical project). For some reason, Prince believed Carmen could be huge. Yet, what sort of talent did Carmen have that Robin lacked, for chrissakes? She was just as bad lol

Hell, what sort of potential did Cat or Anna Fantastic have as solo artists either? Prince seemed to think he could turn anyone into the next female rapper.

On the other hand those were different times for hip-hop: for all the shit people gave Prince for signing TC Ellis, let's not forget that it was originally WB who wanted to sign TC, not Prince.

Those years (88-93) were years of total political and artistic confusion at Paisley Park anyway:

- Sheila and Jill slammed the door because they didn't like the music and Prince wouldn't let them be more than sex dolls

- Cat left because of a personal disagreement

- Anna left because Prince was making promises but the project went nowhere

- Taja also dropped the label for unknown reasons

- WB took The Time off Prince's hands to give the band full control after a whole album was recorded

- Prince recorded a whole hard rock (!) album for MC Flash that even he wouldn't sign on his own label (!!), and failed to sell it to any other label

- Prince's management would sign a boys band to Paisley Park without Prince even knowing (Good Question)

- Tony LeMans was banned from recording at PP because he dated Ingrid but he would still get a Prince song for his second album...

- Prince lost interest in Ingrid's record, quite possibly the greatest project ever made on the label, for various reasons but apparently in parts because she wanted... to sing on her own record (!) + the Justify My Love fiasco spoiled the shock value of the project in Prince's eyes + (according to Ingrid) Carmen took all his attention (her again!)

- Prince signed TC because WB wanted him to, then forced Levi on TC who wanted to work with Miko instead

- Rosie's record would be indefinitely delayed (she also blamed Carmen IIRC)

- George Clinton wanted Prince to help him record a hit record but Prince wouldn't have anything to do with George's music

- Prince could probably have had both Tony Toni Toné and Lenny Kravitz on the label, but somehow managed to miss both opportunities clapping

- Etc., etc., all this leading to the Carmen Electra disaster that played quite a role in souring Prince's relationship with WB

.

I'm not sure why and how this all happened. But it did. So Robin may perfectly have ended with a record on Paisley Park and opening for the D&P Tour, Prince clearly lacked judgement when it came to his side projects at this stage lol

*

Here she is trying out on X Factor eek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ-qS4uHZ9w

OK, that is pretty embarassing. Those singing competition programs are evil, though, they should be banned. But nevertheless, it was embarrassing. IDK what she was thinking eek eek eek

I agree with your points here - except for the second one and the last one - Robin P would have been just as disastrous as Carmen on the D & P tour, but I think what this boils down to is that Prince lost his focus and ability to successfully find and manage the protege acts.

*

The more talented people - Morris and The Time, Paul Peterson, Sheila, etc no longer wanted to be controlled by his choices - which were not always the right ones - and the inexperienced people - Robin, Carmen, Anna G, etc - lacked the talent to perform and sell records.

*

I think with the women/girl groups, Prince was continuously trying to recreate the short-lived success he had with Vanity 6, which was no longer going to appeal to the masses, because times had changed. He was just not making good choices.

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Reply #26 posted 11/15/18 8:40am

databank

avatar

violetcrush said:

databank said:

I agree with your points here - except for the second one and the last one - Robin P would have been just as disastrous as Carmen on the D & P tour, but I think what this boils down to is that Prince lost his focus and ability to successfully find and manage the protege acts.

*

The more talented people - Morris and The Time, Paul Peterson, Sheila, etc no longer wanted to be controlled by his choices - which were not always the right ones - and the inexperienced people - Robin, Carmen, Anna G, etc - lacked the talent to perform and sell records.

*

I think with the women/girl groups, Prince was continuously trying to recreate the short-lived success he had with Vanity 6, which was no longer going to appeal to the masses, because times had changed. He was just not making good choices.

We agree for the most parts.

.

To be more specific about how I see things, I think Prince just got lucky with the first few protégés (TT, V6 and Sheila) because his music was in phase with the zeitgeist, same with Stand Back and Sugar Walls. Then it wasn't anymore. Jill or Mavis were talented singers but their Prince-composed records didn't go anywhere. Eric was talented but neither Madhouse nor his Prince-penned first album made any impression on the smooth jazz scene. Ingrid was talented and her album quite visionary but it didn't go anywhere. And people keep saying the early protégés had talent and yes, they did have talent, but look what happened: except for Jam & Lewis no one had much success after leaving the Prince camp: André, Vanity, Apollonia, Sheila, Taja, Paul, Jesse, Morris, Bobby, Mark, Mazarati and later Rosie... hell, even Wendy & Lisa for chrissakes! All sold poorly by a major label's standards, and were soon dropped by their respective labels...

.

In the hands of the right Europop hack-producer any lolita -Carmen, Cat, Robin, Anna, Mayte- could have had a couple of hits: I remember the Top 50 in the late 80's and early 90's: it was full of formulaic crap, utter shit mixing bad rap with cheap techno, and it sold by the millions. But Prince didn't know how to do that, he was too good to be that good at being bad and the Carmen Electra album is proof enough of that: it's too bad to be good Prince music and too "Prince" to be good commercial crap.

.

What he should have done is what he finally managed to do with Judith 25 years later: act as a proper producer and put his talents at the service of a real artist's own talent instead of turning them into a clone of himself, but Prince was incapable of doing that in 1990. He could adjust to an artist a little - he did it to some extent with Ingrid or Mavis - but most of the time he'd give anyone any random song, as proven by the fact that several songs went from side-project to side-project, and we have Cat singing A Man Called Jesus before Mavis, Anna singing Fantasia Erotica before Carmen and everyone being "On Top" from Robin to Carmen to finally Mayte.

.

So in the end IDK, I think it's easy to bash Robin and her lack of talent, but many untalented people knew some sort of short-lived mass success at the time. In the right hands she could at least have been the flavor of the month for a 12-to-16 year-old audience for a short time. I could easily make you a list of people with zero talent at all who had a few hits back then (and since). Google Indra's Let's Go Crazy for a good example (she even opened for the D&P Tour in Paris). Commercial success has not that often been directluy connected with talent, it's usually more a matter of doing the right thing at the right time and being in tune with the zeitgeist, and even more often a matter of heavily marketing a record as opposed to just releasing it with minimal promotional efforts. With the right marketing, Good Question could have been a one hit wonder while, had he signed with an unsupportive label instead of WB, Prince might have been dropped after Dirty Mind and we would never have had Purple Rain.

.

Regardless, I sincerely hope the tracks Robin recorded at Paisley will one day surface, so we can see how that album could have sounded.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #27 posted 11/15/18 9:53am

violetcrush

databank said:

violetcrush said:

I agree with your points here - except for the second one and the last one - Robin P would have been just as disastrous as Carmen on the D & P tour, but I think what this boils down to is that Prince lost his focus and ability to successfully find and manage the protege acts.

*

The more talented people - Morris and The Time, Paul Peterson, Sheila, etc no longer wanted to be controlled by his choices - which were not always the right ones - and the inexperienced people - Robin, Carmen, Anna G, etc - lacked the talent to perform and sell records.

*

I think with the women/girl groups, Prince was continuously trying to recreate the short-lived success he had with Vanity 6, which was no longer going to appeal to the masses, because times had changed. He was just not making good choices.

We agree for the most parts.

.

To be more specific about how I see things, I think Prince just got lucky with the first few protégés (TT, V6 and Sheila) because his music was in phase with the zeitgeist, same with Stand Back and Sugar Walls. Then it wasn't anymore. Jill or Mavis were talented singers but their Prince-composed records didn't go anywhere. Eric was talented but neither Madhouse nor his Prince-penned first album made any impression on the smooth jazz scene. Ingrid was talented and her album quite visionary but it didn't go anywhere. And people keep saying the early protégés had talent and yes, they did have talent, but look what happened: except for Jam & Lewis no one had much success after leaving the Prince camp: André, Vanity, Apollonia, Sheila, Taja, Paul, Jesse, Morris, Bobby, Mark, Mazarati and later Rosie... hell, even Wendy & Lisa for chrissakes! All sold poorly by a major label's standards, and were soon dropped by their respective labels...

.

In the hands of the right Europop hack-producer any lolita -Carmen, Cat, Robin, Anna, Mayte- could have had a couple of hits: I remember the Top 50 in the late 80's and early 90's: it was full of formulaic crap, utter shit mixing bad rap with cheap techno, and it sold by the millions. But Prince didn't know how to do that, he was too good to be that good at being bad and the Carmen Electra album is proof enough of that: it's too bad to be good Prince music and too "Prince" to be good commercial crap.

.

What he should have done is what he finally managed to do with Judith 25 years later: act as a proper producer and put his talents at the service of a real artist's own talent instead of turning them into a clone of himself, but Prince was incapable of doing that in 1990. He could adjust to an artist a little - he did it to some extent with Ingrid or Mavis - but most of the time he'd give anyone any random song, as proven by the fact that several songs went from side-project to side-project, and we have Cat singing A Man Called Jesus before Mavis, Anna singing Fantasia Erotica before Carmen and everyone being "On Top" from Robin to Carmen to finally Mayte.

.

So in the end IDK, I think it's easy to bash Robin and her lack of talent, but many untalented people knew some sort of short-lived mass success at the time. In the right hands she could at least have been the flavor of the month for a 12-to-16 year-old audience for a short time. I could easily make you a list of people with zero talent at all who had a few hits back then (and since). Google Indra's Let's Go Crazy for a good example (she even opened for the D&P Tour in Paris). Commercial success has not that often been directluy connected with talent, it's usually more a matter of doing the right thing at the right time and being in tune with the zeitgeist, and even more often a matter of heavily marketing a record as opposed to just releasing it with minimal promotional efforts. With the right marketing, Good Question could have been a one hit wonder while, had he signed with an unsupportive label instead of WB, Prince might have been dropped after Dirty Mind and we would never have had Purple Rain.

.

Regardless, I sincerely hope the tracks Robin recorded at Paisley will one day surface, so we can see how that album could have sounded.

I agree with most of your insights here, but your thought about Prince being dropped after Dirty Mind if not for being with a supportive label - from what I have read WB was very concerned when Prince did the 180 turn with DM, but most critics loved the music and were giving good reviews, so they stuck it out. Plus, the music is objectively good and he was a trend-setter at that time. I don't think the songs that Prince did for Carmen, Robin, or Anna are that good - just my opnion, but I don't care for any of them. They sound the same as any of the other crap that was being released by the "one hit wonders" of that time. It was just unoriginal pop music with the same musical sound. That being said, when I listen to the demos of Prince's versions of some of the songs I actually do like them. I guess it comes back to only Prince can really do a good version of a Prince song....for the most part.

*

I agree that many musicians are not supported by their label - or not given the correct marketing support. Wendy and Lisa are a perfect example. Their labels were forcing them into the Pop and Top 40 genre, but they really should have been part of the alternative music format. Most of their songs still sound fresh and unique today - they do not have that typical late 80's/early 90's pop sound, with the exception of a few that the label released as the singles to try to get a "hit" song.

*

We'll agree to disagree on the Robin P thing smile I have no interest in hearing her demos, unless Prince is singing them biggrin

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Reply #28 posted 11/15/18 10:34am

databank

avatar

violetcrush said:

databank said:

We agree for the most parts.

.

To be more specific about how I see things, I think Prince just got lucky with the first few protégés (TT, V6 and Sheila) because his music was in phase with the zeitgeist, same with Stand Back and Sugar Walls. Then it wasn't anymore. Jill or Mavis were talented singers but their Prince-composed records didn't go anywhere. Eric was talented but neither Madhouse nor his Prince-penned first album made any impression on the smooth jazz scene. Ingrid was talented and her album quite visionary but it didn't go anywhere. And people keep saying the early protégés had talent and yes, they did have talent, but look what happened: except for Jam & Lewis no one had much success after leaving the Prince camp: André, Vanity, Apollonia, Sheila, Taja, Paul, Jesse, Morris, Bobby, Mark, Mazarati and later Rosie... hell, even Wendy & Lisa for chrissakes! All sold poorly by a major label's standards, and were soon dropped by their respective labels...

.

In the hands of the right Europop hack-producer any lolita -Carmen, Cat, Robin, Anna, Mayte- could have had a couple of hits: I remember the Top 50 in the late 80's and early 90's: it was full of formulaic crap, utter shit mixing bad rap with cheap techno, and it sold by the millions. But Prince didn't know how to do that, he was too good to be that good at being bad and the Carmen Electra album is proof enough of that: it's too bad to be good Prince music and too "Prince" to be good commercial crap.

.

What he should have done is what he finally managed to do with Judith 25 years later: act as a proper producer and put his talents at the service of a real artist's own talent instead of turning them into a clone of himself, but Prince was incapable of doing that in 1990. He could adjust to an artist a little - he did it to some extent with Ingrid or Mavis - but most of the time he'd give anyone any random song, as proven by the fact that several songs went from side-project to side-project, and we have Cat singing A Man Called Jesus before Mavis, Anna singing Fantasia Erotica before Carmen and everyone being "On Top" from Robin to Carmen to finally Mayte.

.

So in the end IDK, I think it's easy to bash Robin and her lack of talent, but many untalented people knew some sort of short-lived mass success at the time. In the right hands she could at least have been the flavor of the month for a 12-to-16 year-old audience for a short time. I could easily make you a list of people with zero talent at all who had a few hits back then (and since). Google Indra's Let's Go Crazy for a good example (she even opened for the D&P Tour in Paris). Commercial success has not that often been directluy connected with talent, it's usually more a matter of doing the right thing at the right time and being in tune with the zeitgeist, and even more often a matter of heavily marketing a record as opposed to just releasing it with minimal promotional efforts. With the right marketing, Good Question could have been a one hit wonder while, had he signed with an unsupportive label instead of WB, Prince might have been dropped after Dirty Mind and we would never have had Purple Rain.

.

Regardless, I sincerely hope the tracks Robin recorded at Paisley will one day surface, so we can see how that album could have sounded.

I agree with most of your insights here, but your thought about Prince being dropped after Dirty Mind if not for being with a supportive label - from what I have read WB was very concerned when Prince did the 180 turn with DM, but most critics loved the music and were giving good reviews, so they stuck it out. Plus, the music is objectively good and he was a trend-setter at that time. I don't think the songs that Prince did for Carmen, Robin, or Anna are that good - just my opnion, but I don't care for any of them. They sound the same as any of the other crap that was being released by the "one hit wonders" of that time. It was just unoriginal pop music with the same musical sound. That being said, when I listen to the demos of Prince's versions of some of the songs I actually do like them. I guess it comes back to only Prince can really do a good version of a Prince song....for the most part.

*

I agree that many musicians are not supported by their label - or not given the correct marketing support. Wendy and Lisa are a perfect example. Their labels were forcing them into the Pop and Top 40 genre, but they really should have been part of the alternative music format. Most of their songs still sound fresh and unique today - they do not have that typical late 80's/early 90's pop sound, with the exception of a few that the label released as the singles to try to get a "hit" song.

*

We'll agree to disagree on the Robin P thing smile I have no interest in hearing her demos, unless Prince is singing them biggrin

No, of course, I wasn't implying that.

What I meant is that another label may have given Prince 3 records and given-up on him, which is exactly what Virgin did with W&L (despite good reviews at the time).

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #29 posted 11/15/18 10:51am

violetcrush

databank said:

violetcrush said:

I agree with most of your insights here, but your thought about Prince being dropped after Dirty Mind if not for being with a supportive label - from what I have read WB was very concerned when Prince did the 180 turn with DM, but most critics loved the music and were giving good reviews, so they stuck it out. Plus, the music is objectively good and he was a trend-setter at that time. I don't think the songs that Prince did for Carmen, Robin, or Anna are that good - just my opnion, but I don't care for any of them. They sound the same as any of the other crap that was being released by the "one hit wonders" of that time. It was just unoriginal pop music with the same musical sound. That being said, when I listen to the demos of Prince's versions of some of the songs I actually do like them. I guess it comes back to only Prince can really do a good version of a Prince song....for the most part.

*

I agree that many musicians are not supported by their label - or not given the correct marketing support. Wendy and Lisa are a perfect example. Their labels were forcing them into the Pop and Top 40 genre, but they really should have been part of the alternative music format. Most of their songs still sound fresh and unique today - they do not have that typical late 80's/early 90's pop sound, with the exception of a few that the label released as the singles to try to get a "hit" song.

*

We'll agree to disagree on the Robin P thing smile I have no interest in hearing her demos, unless Prince is singing them biggrin

No, of course, I wasn't implying that.

What I meant is that another label may have given Prince 3 records and given-up on him, which is exactly what Virgin did with W&L (despite good reviews at the time).

Actually, I believe Wendy & Lisa went through a couple of labels, so they didn't even get 3 chances for a hit record. Yes, I can see your point with WB and Prince. He did get unprecedented support and control of his music from WB.

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