independent and unofficial
Prince fan community
Forum jump
Forums > Prince: Music and More > is it true that prince couldnt have performed at first avenue without white band members?
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 1 of 2 12>
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 11/08/20 12:58pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

is it true that prince couldnt have performed at first avenue without white band members?

theres an andrea swensson interview where she says that ironically as prince made first avenue so famous, he wouldnt have been able to peform there in the early days of his career without a mixed band, as black bands just werent booked there. that could also be a genre thing, i.e. no funk or R&B, or it could be a coded way to exclude black bands. either way, does anyone know if this is true? for some reason this surprised me, as that club is so associated with prince in my mind, i never expected that it wasnt always an option for him.

https://mspmag.com/arts-and-culture/qa-andrea-swensson-prince-expert/

The story I heard over and over again from all these old funk and soul guys is, if you had literally more than two black guys in your band, you couldn't play in downtown Minneapolis. Prince knew he couldn't play at First Avenue if he didn't have Bobby Z in his band, and Lisa on keys and Doctor Fink. He was up against actual discrimination.


[Edited 11/8/20 21:28pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 11/08/20 5:35pm

Seahorsie

avatar

Wow! I had never heard this before. (And I read a lot of Prince information & listen to Podcasts...) I think even though he is not with us, there will always be something more...thank goodness.

Good morning children...take a look out your window, the world is falling...
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 11/09/20 12:26am

psyche2

What about The Time?

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 11/09/20 1:15am

lavendardrumma
chine

> that could also be a genre thing, i.e. no funk or R&B

Probably something closer to this, because genres were really segregated then. The Wiki for the club says Lipps, Inc. broke the barrier, but also credits The Time ...and says it was a Disco prior to First Avenue, and then borrowed the Danceteria. It also mentions booking Bo Diddley, so there's something to that story but the detaiils are off.

Also, not for nothing but a mixed race band could have made it harder to get booked not easier, but at the same time, all Black rock bands getting booked into a rock club would have been a challenge too.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 11/09/20 3:54am

Vannormal

avatar

-

From wikipedia :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Avenue_(nightclub)

-

Facility, opening[edit]

220px-Minneapolis_Greyhound.jpg
The Minneapolis Greyhound Lines depot was built in the Streamline Moderne style in 1937.

The building opened as a bus depot in 1937, decades after Greyhound Lines was founded in Hibbing, Minnesota. It was noted for its Art Deco style and amenities of air conditioning, shower rooms, and public telephones. The interior floor was checkered terrazzo, while the exterior was shiny blue bricks with white trim.[3] The station moved to its present location on 10th Street in 1968.[4]

The transformation from a bus depot into a concert venue has a disputed history.[4] Clearly, Allan Fingerhut, heir to the Fingerhut catalog company, had capital and invested $150,000, and Danny Stevens of Danny's Reasons had a hard-to-get liquor license.[4] Both men agree promoter Skip Goucher had the original idea for a nightclub in the bus depot.[4]

They opened The Depot on April 3, 1970, with Joe Cocker and a stage crowded with 27 musicians and singers who turned in two magnificent sets.[4] Among Cocker's Mad Dogs & Englishmen that day were Leon Russell, Rita Coolidge, Claudia Lennear, Jim Keltner, Jim Price and Bobby Keys.[5]

Disco era[edit]

Following two years of steady business, The Depot was faced with a new reality: the public music scene was changing. Psychedelic rock was out and disco was in. In order to stay on top of this new trend, the club needed to change its image. After a short remodel, The Depot in July 1972, evolved into Uncle Sam's, a national franchise of the American Avents Corporation of Cincinnati. A red, white, and blue patriotic-themed club with recorded dance music, a drummer, a DJ, and a light-up plexiglass dance floor became what doorman Richard Luka described as, "Studio 54 for the discriminating Kmart shopper." [6] In about late 1973, Steve McClellan (who'd become the club's talent buyer and eventually general manager)[7] started working at Uncle Sam's as a bartender.[8] He would enter American Avents' management training in 1975.

After American Avents left in 1979, general manager Steve McClellan hired his former high school classmate Jack Meyers to help him manage money.[8] Dan Lessard managed the bar staff. The club's name was shortened to Sam's in early 1980. The club got its third name change on New Year's Eve 1981 when it became First Avenue.[9]

Chrissie Dunlap began to work days in the office in 1979, about the time McClellan booked the Ramones and Pat Benatar in back-to-back, sell out concerts. Disc jockeys Kevin Cole and Roy Freedom developed weekend dance nights dubbed Danceteria after the New York club, often creating enough business to pay the club's bills. To fill the space, McClellan booked male strippers and female mud wrestlers. McClellan and his assistant Dunlap booked Bo Diddley, the first of many rock elders booked during Dunlap's nine-year tour of duty.[13]

220px-Steve_McClellan_by_Greg_Helgeson-198607.jpg
During the era's wild west of settlement with artists, Steve McClellan was known as one of the few reliable promoters in the United States.[14]

The Prince explosion[edit]

Discrimination had created a race barrier in downtown Minneapolis. Encouraged by Dunlap to write their own material,[15] Jimmy Jam and his 11-piece Mind & Matter were able to break through with bookings by McClellan in the 1970s. First booking the one-hit wonder Lipps, Inc., with lead singer Cynthia Johnson, McClellan decided to book Prince in 1981, for $2,500 plus part of the gate. Before he died in 2016, Prince was to play nine full First Avenue concerts. Eventually, many of his fans thought he owned the club.[15]

Recorded live in 1983 from a Record Plant truck parked outside at one of those shows, Purple Rain became the title of the film Purple Rain. Prince's management team offered First Avenue $100,000 to use the mainroom for filming in late November and December 1983, with the clause that the Entry would remain open. Most of the club's employees were extras in the film. The production gave the club its patch panel and dimmer packs. McClellan feared the audience had changed from genuine music lovers to a lot of tourists, still, he and Meyers were grateful for the boost in revenue.[15]

-

[Edited 11/9/20 4:13am]

"...no matter what, all will be fine, always."
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 11/09/20 4:01am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

thanks, but that doesnt give me details on black acts!

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 11/09/20 4:12am

Vannormal

avatar

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

thanks, but that doesnt give me details on black acts!

-

Purely informative, and,

i put it on here because of Disco,

I thought it was bascally known for it's black gay invention and support...

And then as i come to think of it,

the movie 'Saturday Night Fever', had not much to do with the black disco scene...

It is true that there were few black artists booked..

-

[Edited 11/9/20 4:13am]

"...no matter what, all will be fine, always."
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 11/09/20 6:11am

jdcxc

This was TRUE of ALL of the American Apartheid segregated music industry at the time.

Radio Stations, MTV/Video shows, Concert Tours, Venues, Artist Marketing were all segregated, exclusionary and racist.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 11/09/20 7:40am

SPYZFAN1

As popular as "Saturday Night Fever" was for escalating disco in the late 70's mainstream, the film was bashed, criticized and seen as a joke by the NYC underground black/hispanic/gay club crowd. .....They felt that the Italian-Americans were exploiting their scene. Despite that, I still love the film.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 11/09/20 7:53am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

jdcxc said:

This was TRUE of ALL of the American Apartheid segregated music industry at the time.



Radio Stations, MTV/Video shows, Concert Tours, Venues, Artist Marketing were all segregated, exclusionary and racist.



I guess its not a surprise when you think of it being a breakthrough for prince to get on MTV in 82, but its just, I didnt think that it would be the case with first Avenue as to me when I think of the club, I think of prince. But then I now know it's a rock venue first and foremost.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 11/09/20 9:50am

TrivialPursuit

avatar

psyche2 said:

What about The Time?


Monte Moir is white.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 11/09/20 10:31am

onlyforaminute

TrivialPursuit said:



psyche2 said:


What about The Time?




Monte Moir is white.


We forget that don't we?
Time keeps on slipping into the future...


This moment is all there is...
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 11/09/20 12:42pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

onlyforaminute said:

TrivialPursuit said:


Monte Moir is white.

We forget that don't we?

But he was replying to the OP's urban legend that 'if you had literally more than two black guys in your band, you couldn't play downtown'

.

the UL is allegedly from guys in Funk bands. First Avenue went through about 4 incarnations
.
First Avenue
(also the 7th St Entry)

Uncle Sams

The DEPOT

.

so I think it would be more about Music genre, than race along with male strippers and female mud wrestlers.
Uncle Sams was more Disco/Dance oriented

The DePot was Psychedelic rock

.
Encouraged by Dunlap to write their own material, Jimmy Jam and his 11-piece Mind & Matter were able to break through with bookings by McClellan in the 1970s. First booking the one-hit wonder Lipps, Inc., with lead singer Cynthia Johnson,

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 11/09/20 2:05pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

OldFriends4Sale said:

onlyforaminute said:

TrivialPursuit said: We forget that don't we?

But he was replying to the OP's urban legend that 'if you had literally more than two black guys in your band, you couldn't play downtown'


Interesting note that Monte's one of the longest members of the group, certainly longer than even Jesse. I guess that makes Morris and 'Bean the longest constant members, with Monte coming in a close third. (Thinking out loud here.)

Anyway, Minnesota is a weird state with two identities. Not sure about the racist attitude of no Blacks downtown, etc., but who knows.

[Edited 11/9/20 14:17pm]

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 11/09/20 2:10pm

onlyforaminute

OldFriends4Sale said:



onlyforaminute said:


TrivialPursuit said:



Monte Moir is white.



We forget that don't we?


But he was replying to the OP's urban legend that 'if you had literally more than two black guys in your band, you couldn't play downtown'



.


the UL is allegedly from guys in Funk bands. First Avenue went through about 4 incarnations
.
First Avenue
(also the 7th St Entry)


Uncle Sams


The DEPOT


.


so I think it would be more about Music genre, than race along with male strippers and female mud wrestlers.
Uncle Sams was more Disco/Dance oriented


The DePot was Psychedelic rock


.
Encouraged by Dunlap to write their own material, Jimmy Jam and his 11-piece Mind & Matter were able to break through with bookings by McClellan in the 1970s. First booking the one-hit wonder Lipps, Inc., with lead singer Cynthia Johnson,




Aw.
Time keeps on slipping into the future...


This moment is all there is...
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 11/09/20 3:28pm

laytonian

I don't have the First Avenue History book here, but DO know that The Ike and Tina Turner Review played FA long before Prince.
[Edited 11/17/20 18:28pm]
Welcome to "the org", laytonian… come bathe with me.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 11/09/20 3:46pm

wonderboy

Sounds more like revisionist history to me. People continue to look back and apply race and gender stuff to things they know little about.

As much as Prince called out racist things later in his career there is no doubt he would have said something. Also, I doubt anyone could have influenced Prince to do something he did not have a mind to do. You telling me he could stand up to a record label at 19 but not a club?

Again, makes no sense at all.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 11/09/20 5:22pm

rednblue

FWIW on a slightly different subject, here's something on Uncle Sam's in the 70's. From a Current blog reporting on a Minnesota History Center First Avenue exhibit:

"The Mainroom went deeply disco in the ’70s. After the Greyhound bus station moved in 1968, the building became The Depot in 1970 and then Uncle Sam’s in 1972. Uncle Sam’s was part of a national franchise, and everything in the club from the decorations to the drinks had a patriotic theme. Instead of having live bands, most of the music played at Uncle Sam’s was disco spun by DJs. Even though disco was created and appreciated by diverse music lovers around the world, Uncle Sam’s was a segregated club that used strict dress codes and security to drive African-American customers away. (Simone Cazares)"

https://blog.thecurrent.org/2019/05/inside-the-minnesota-history-centers-first-avenue-exhibit/



From another interesting blog entry: "Then and Now: King Solomon's Mines, Minneapolis's First Downtown R&B Club"

" 'This is where the government can be really hypocritical,' Constantine told the Star Tribune after King Solomon’s Mines closed. 'In some areas, such as schools, buses, jobs, housing, the government forces you to integrate. I was serving the cause of integration voluntarily, and all the city did to me was harass me and eventually wipe me out. I’ll tell you truthfully, until the city develops some sensitivity or understanding toward the problem, no night club owner trying to practice human rights or initiate integration policies can possibly survive.' "

https://blog.thecurrent.o...n-rb-club/


[Edited 11/9/20 19:12pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 11/09/20 5:49pm

rednblue

One other somewhat related thing. Can't resist inserting myself in here, because I was lucky enough to attend this panel discussion. Loved hearing from Steve McClellan!

"Swensson got a big laugh with a shot of Prince giving side-eye as she told the story about the young musician going on American Bandstand, where Dick Clark declared, “This isn’t the kind of music that comes out of Minneapolis!” Swensson’s new book Got to Be Something Here is part of a long-term, wide-ranging effort by many individuals and organizations to document and celebrate the rich African-American musical communities in Minnesota, communities that produced Prince but that the world’s Dick Clarks were unaware of.

Clark wasn’t the only one. Steve McClellan, general manager of First Avenue from the mid-1970s into the early 2000s, described how hearing the Numero Group’s Purple Snow compilation (2013) opened his ears to just how many amazing local R&B and soul groups weren’t even on his radar back before Prince changed everything.

McClellan described being proud to employ black staffers and book black artists, but he admitted that it was only in the later 1980s, when First Ave actually began to attract predominantly black audiences for some shows, that he more fully understood the kind of institutional racism that had led to the forced closure of venues bringing African-American entertainment downtown."


https://blog.thecurrent.o...al-impact/

[Edited 11/9/20 17:51pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 11/09/20 7:04pm

lavendardrumma
chine

wonderboy said:

Sounds more like revisionist history to me. People continue to look back and apply race and gender stuff to things they know little about.


Eh. Honestly it's hard to fathom but if anything we're downplaying how divided music, and really all of the arts were even after some groundbreaking music opened doors. Seriously, it was a much weirder nonsensical time than you could ever imagine.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 11/09/20 7:07pm

lavendardrumma
chine

rednblue said:

Clark wasn’t the only one. Steve McClellan, general manager of First Avenue from the mid-1970s into the early 2000s, described how hearing the Numero Group’s Purple Snow compilation (2013) opened his ears to just how many amazing local R&B and soul groups weren’t even on his radar back before Prince changed everything.




Makes me wonder what was going on at Electric Fetus? I guess they were rock focused?

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 11/09/20 7:22pm

rednblue

lavendardrummachine said:

rednblue said:

Clark wasn’t the only one. Steve McClellan, general manager of First Avenue from the mid-1970s into the early 2000s, described how hearing the Numero Group’s Purple Snow compilation (2013) opened his ears to just how many amazing local R&B and soul groups weren’t even on his radar back before Prince changed everything.




Makes me wonder what was going on at Electric Fetus? I guess they were rock focused?


Great question about the store's music focus!

I'm going to continue to look, but for now, what I've found about what was going on at the store back then has become shamelessly off topic. Sorry OP!


"February 1969: Korsh and Foley faced misdemeanor indecency charges for displaying a poster in their store window with an illustration of then President Richard Nixon and his wife, Pat, standing together nude, just like John Lennon and Yoko Ono on the “Two Virgins” album cover. Local media picked up on the story, charges were dropped and the poster became a hot seller.

April 1970: New co-owner Keith Covart was arrested for putting up a stars-and-stripes flag with a peace symbol where the 50 stars usually are. He went to trial for desecration of Old Glory, and he prevailed because the court ruled that it wasn’t officially an American flag.

1970: The Fetus moved across the street to 514 Cedar Av. S.

March 1972: The Fetus ran its infamous naked sale: Take your clothes off in the store and get a free LP and smoking pipe. About 50 people took advantage of the promotion, which caused controversy with the store’s landlord."


https://www.startribune.c...484863101/

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 11/09/20 7:34pm

lavendardrumma
chine

rednblue said:

I'm going to continue to look, but for now, what I've found about what was going on at the store back then has become shamelessly off topic. Sorry OP!



It's interesting! From what you posted, it was a counterculture underground record store, which would usually mean they didn't have as many hang ups. Black artists were often included on bills, even headlining the big halls, but they were featuring the BB Kings of the world, the big names. Prince was loyal to the store and liked giving them business, so yeah, pretty interesting to me at least.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 11/09/20 7:44pm

rednblue

lavendardrummachine said:

rednblue said:

I'm going to continue to look, but for now, what I've found about what was going on at the store back then has become shamelessly off topic. Sorry OP!



It's interesting! From what you posted, it was a counterculture underground record store, which would usually mean they didn't have as many hang ups. Black artists were often included on bills, even headlining the big halls, but they were featuring the BB Kings of the world, the big names. Prince was loyal to the store and liked giving them business, so yeah, pretty interesting to me at least.


It's interesting to me, too, and very pleased to learn about the counterculture underground stuff.

Also happy to have found this detailed history:

http://www.mnbs.org/Elect...istory.pdf

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #24 posted 11/10/20 2:59am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

rednblue said:

lavendardrummachine said:



Makes me wonder what was going on at Electric Fetus? I guess they were rock focused?


Great question about the store's music focus!

I'm going to continue to look, but for now, what I've found about what was going on at the store back then has become shamelessly off topic. Sorry OP!


"February 1969: Korsh and Foley faced misdemeanor indecency charges for displaying a poster in their store window with an illustration of then President Richard Nixon and his wife, Pat, standing together nude, just like John Lennon and Yoko Ono on the “Two Virgins” album cover. Local media picked up on the story, charges were dropped and the poster became a hot seller.

April 1970: New co-owner Keith Covart was arrested for putting up a stars-and-stripes flag with a peace symbol where the 50 stars usually are. He went to trial for desecration of Old Glory, and he prevailed because the court ruled that it wasn’t officially an American flag.

1970: The Fetus moved across the street to 514 Cedar Av. S.

March 1972: The Fetus ran its infamous naked sale: Take your clothes off in the store and get a free LP and smoking pipe. About 50 people took advantage of the promotion, which caused controversy with the store’s landlord."


https://www.startribune.c...484863101/

no its cool to go a bit off topic. its all painting a better picture of the scene in mpls which i dont know tons about TBH so good to read

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #25 posted 11/10/20 3:04am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

i just wanna know if in the 70s, did FA book guys like bb king, or bo diddley, etc? you know black artists but who were more acceptable as they were part of 'rock' rather than the modern black styles of the day. just curious.

i just checked princevault and it looks like he first played live there when it was sams in 1981

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #26 posted 11/10/20 6:29am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

TrivialPursuit said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

But he was replying to the OP's urban legend that 'if you had literally more than two black guys in your band, you couldn't play downtown'


Interesting note that Monte's one of the longest members of the group, certainly longer than even Jesse. I guess that makes Morris and 'Bean the longest constant members, with Monte coming in a close third. (Thinking out loud here.)

Anyway, Minnesota is a weird state with two identities. Not sure about the racist attitude of no Blacks downtown, etc., but who knows.

[Edited 11/9/20 14:17pm]

Yep Morris Day, Jellybean and Monte followed by Jerome

All of them except for Morris and Jesse ended up doing work with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis off and on in connection with Janet's two album period

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #27 posted 11/10/20 12:22pm

lavendardrumma
chine

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

i just wanna know if in the 70s, did FA book guys like bb king, or bo diddley, etc? you know black artists but who were more acceptable as they were part of 'rock' rather than the modern black styles of the day. just curious.

i just checked princevault and it looks like he first played live there when it was sams in 1981

Good question. Yes. BB King played there in 1970, so did Ramsey Lewis, Al Jarreau and Pacific Gas and Electric, which had a Black lead and a white band, and a band called Exuma who sound wild.

https://twincitiesmusichighlights.net/venues/depot/

Here's the archive for First Avenue's band files, that starts in 1981.
http://www2.mnhs.org/library/findaids/00233.xml

Like the Wikipedia says, there's Lipps, Inc. first, then it shows Prince and The Time soon after. Wynton Marsalis, War, Bad Brains, Sweet taste of Afrika, and The Persuasions get booked.

But what happened between 1970 - 1981?


Prince played Uncle Sam's but I can't tell if those are the First Avenue shows in their files or before.

[Edited 11/10/20 12:25pm]

[Edited 11/10/20 18:42pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #28 posted 11/10/20 4:09pm

jackson35

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

theres an andrea swensson interview where she says that ironically as prince made first avenue so famous, he wouldnt have been able to peform there in the early days of his career without a mixed band, as black bands just werent booked there. that could also be a genre thing, i.e. no funk or R&B, or it could be a coded way to exclude black bands. either way, does anyone know if this is true? for some reason this surprised me, as that club is so associated with prince in my mind, i never expected that it wasnt always an option for him.

https://mspmag.com/arts-and-culture/qa-andrea-swensson-prince-expert/

The story I heard over and over again from all these old funk and soul guys is, if you had literally more than two black guys in your band, you couldn't play in downtown Minneapolis. Prince knew he couldn't play at First Avenue if he didn't have Bobby Z in his band, and Lisa on keys and Doctor Fink. He was up against actual discrimination.


[Edited 11/8/20 21:28pm]

the issue was following or having a hit record that fill up the place.first ave did denie prince there until he had a hit record.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #29 posted 11/17/20 1:11pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 1 of 2 12>
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Prince: Music and More > is it true that prince couldnt have performed at first avenue without white band members?